<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Thich Nhat Hanh at the Pasadena Civic Auditorium</title>
	<atom:link href="http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 17:19:08 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: kpsk</title>
		<link>http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/comment-page-1/#comment-491</link>
		<dc:creator>kpsk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/?p=204#comment-491</guid>
		<description>It is amazing that people will pay $25 to listen to this Buddhist monk when the pope offer his talk for free.  This must be based on something like group mindset and consumerism hype, as you presented here.  The Buddhist concept of reincarnation is as stupid and superficial as the Bible &#039;s Genesis story, creationism and evangelicalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is amazing that people will pay $25 to listen to this Buddhist monk when the pope offer his talk for free.  This must be based on something like group mindset and consumerism hype, as you presented here.  The Buddhist concept of reincarnation is as stupid and superficial as the Bible &#8216;s Genesis story, creationism and evangelicalism.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Axial</title>
		<link>http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/comment-page-1/#comment-409</link>
		<dc:creator>Axial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/?p=204#comment-409</guid>
		<description>1. &quot;The converse, such as Asiatic cultures adopting Christianity, is equally implausible. People should stick with the religion of their culture, if only for that reason. Adopting other people’s theology is a form of reverse religious imperialism.&quot;  

- The two are not equally unintelligible.  It is not difficult to understand Judeo-Christian doctrine because the concepts are very intuitive and straightforward.  That is, one is created by a God, one accumulates merit or demerit in the eyes of the God, and one enters either a pleasant or an unpleasant afterlife according to the judgment of God.  

Correct me if I am oversimplifying it, but there is nothing difficult to understand about that concept, even to the oriental mind.  For example, a Chinese Muslim or a Korean Christian would have much less trouble understanding the Christian concept of a common creator and an afterlife than an American Buddhist understanding the concept of non-duality and mindfulness.  

It is doubtful even that many Asian Buddhists understand the concept of non-duality.  It is completely counterintuitive, not only to the mind nurtured on Greek-style inquiry into the external world but also to the practically-oriented Chinese mind.  The Chinese went through similar problems absorbing Buddhist concepts.

Buddhism is essentially an Indian religion using distinctly Indian philosophical concepts such as non-duality and illusion of self.  The only community who we can say is remotely comfortable with these concepts is the Brahmin priesthood of the Vedanta community.  This is the intellectual tradition which took non-duality as a premise and it is the tradition from which Buddhism sprung.  

You might have something with the cultural unintelligiblity argument, but you have not yet applied it to the right facts. 

2. &quot;Rather then concentrating on their own personal well-being, though, it would be far more socially useful for students of mindfulness to do something practical like volunteer to help the homeless...&quot;

-You bring up a very good point here.  You seem to be making a social policy argument,  That no religion can have merit or be desirable if it does not promote socially useful behavior.  
It is a very important question with no easy answer.  But I will bring up some considerations.

a) We do not all agree on what is socially useful.  Many of us cause great harm to the world in pursuing what we think is socially useful, e.g. Islamic Fundamentalist fighting the good fight against the US in order to beat off US imperialism and oppression of Muslim countries.  

With 6 billion people in the world who have 6 billion different ideas of what needs to be done, keeping to yourself and not harming others maybe the most socially useful thing you can do.  
b) You put people in quite a dilemma by asking them to stop doing something they deem as necessary because it requires them to pass up the opportunity to do something immediately useful.  But we do this all the time when we decide to work overtime instead of helping the needy, or spend time with our families instead of helping the needy, or cultivate ourselves through private study instead of helping the needy.   Surely, even the most productive, saintly people have their personal time for hobbies and contemplation.  
  
3.  “Would Judaism have been able to survive for thousands of years under some of the most adverse circumstances imaginable if everybody had been in a sitting meditation, concentrating on being mindful? Would Islam have been able to become the dominant religion of the Middle East if they were walking around with their heads facing the ground, performing a walking meditation? Would Catholicism have been able to repel the Ottoman Empire’s invasion of Vienna in 1529 under similar conditions? Had it not been for this singular event there is a significant possibility that Northern Europe (and the New World) all would have become Muslims.”

Before I reply, I must take issue with some of the implicit assumptions of this argument:
a) By Judaism/Islam/Christianity, do you mean the ideas or the institutions?
b) What would be wrong with Northern Europe being Muslim? Is it not a religion of the book as Judaism and Christianity?  If it serves to make people follow the one true God and brings all people to Heaven, how would it differ from the end goal of Judaism and Christianity?

-Consider the Roman conquest of Greece in the 180s BC, after which Rome adopted Greek ideas and spread them throughout the Mediterranean world and beyond.  The Greeks achieved immortality through their conquest by the Romans.  The Roman conqueror became the conquered.  

But would you have rather had the Greek world cast out the influences of Periclean Athens for the example of the Spartans?  To trade the weakness of intellectual refinement for the strength of constant military preparation.  Would it be worth it to protect Greece from the Macedonians and the Romans? 

4. “The discipline and practice of mindfulness makes far more sense in the context of circular religions as opposed to linear ones (as I have defined them).”  
-This is a very good insight and something I have never considered.  


You have some insightful observations on this site.  You have a very good understanding of Judaism/Christian/Islamic doctrine and you apply it in an even-handed manner.  It does not appear that you have spent as much time examining Buddhist doctrine as you have Judaism/Christian/Islamic doctrine, which is unfortunate because it looks like you have some useful points to add.  

If you are trying to criticize the shallowness of the Western practice of Buddhism, you could take more care to not expand criticism of its practitioners into criticism of the doctrine.  However, if you are just hoping to disparage Buddhism to deter people from pursuing it, you would only be deterring the people who are aimless and easily deterred to begin with.  I hope this is not the case and I am looking forward to your thoughts on the actual doctrinal roots of Buddhism.  

Axial</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. &#8220;The converse, such as Asiatic cultures adopting Christianity, is equally implausible. People should stick with the religion of their culture, if only for that reason. Adopting other people’s theology is a form of reverse religious imperialism.&#8221;  </p>
<p>- The two are not equally unintelligible.  It is not difficult to understand Judeo-Christian doctrine because the concepts are very intuitive and straightforward.  That is, one is created by a God, one accumulates merit or demerit in the eyes of the God, and one enters either a pleasant or an unpleasant afterlife according to the judgment of God.  </p>
<p>Correct me if I am oversimplifying it, but there is nothing difficult to understand about that concept, even to the oriental mind.  For example, a Chinese Muslim or a Korean Christian would have much less trouble understanding the Christian concept of a common creator and an afterlife than an American Buddhist understanding the concept of non-duality and mindfulness.  </p>
<p>It is doubtful even that many Asian Buddhists understand the concept of non-duality.  It is completely counterintuitive, not only to the mind nurtured on Greek-style inquiry into the external world but also to the practically-oriented Chinese mind.  The Chinese went through similar problems absorbing Buddhist concepts.</p>
<p>Buddhism is essentially an Indian religion using distinctly Indian philosophical concepts such as non-duality and illusion of self.  The only community who we can say is remotely comfortable with these concepts is the Brahmin priesthood of the Vedanta community.  This is the intellectual tradition which took non-duality as a premise and it is the tradition from which Buddhism sprung.  </p>
<p>You might have something with the cultural unintelligiblity argument, but you have not yet applied it to the right facts. </p>
<p>2. &#8220;Rather then concentrating on their own personal well-being, though, it would be far more socially useful for students of mindfulness to do something practical like volunteer to help the homeless&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>-You bring up a very good point here.  You seem to be making a social policy argument,  That no religion can have merit or be desirable if it does not promote socially useful behavior.<br />
It is a very important question with no easy answer.  But I will bring up some considerations.</p>
<p>a) We do not all agree on what is socially useful.  Many of us cause great harm to the world in pursuing what we think is socially useful, e.g. Islamic Fundamentalist fighting the good fight against the US in order to beat off US imperialism and oppression of Muslim countries.  </p>
<p>With 6 billion people in the world who have 6 billion different ideas of what needs to be done, keeping to yourself and not harming others maybe the most socially useful thing you can do.<br />
b) You put people in quite a dilemma by asking them to stop doing something they deem as necessary because it requires them to pass up the opportunity to do something immediately useful.  But we do this all the time when we decide to work overtime instead of helping the needy, or spend time with our families instead of helping the needy, or cultivate ourselves through private study instead of helping the needy.   Surely, even the most productive, saintly people have their personal time for hobbies and contemplation.  </p>
<p>3.  “Would Judaism have been able to survive for thousands of years under some of the most adverse circumstances imaginable if everybody had been in a sitting meditation, concentrating on being mindful? Would Islam have been able to become the dominant religion of the Middle East if they were walking around with their heads facing the ground, performing a walking meditation? Would Catholicism have been able to repel the Ottoman Empire’s invasion of Vienna in 1529 under similar conditions? Had it not been for this singular event there is a significant possibility that Northern Europe (and the New World) all would have become Muslims.”</p>
<p>Before I reply, I must take issue with some of the implicit assumptions of this argument:<br />
a) By Judaism/Islam/Christianity, do you mean the ideas or the institutions?<br />
b) What would be wrong with Northern Europe being Muslim? Is it not a religion of the book as Judaism and Christianity?  If it serves to make people follow the one true God and brings all people to Heaven, how would it differ from the end goal of Judaism and Christianity?</p>
<p>-Consider the Roman conquest of Greece in the 180s BC, after which Rome adopted Greek ideas and spread them throughout the Mediterranean world and beyond.  The Greeks achieved immortality through their conquest by the Romans.  The Roman conqueror became the conquered.  </p>
<p>But would you have rather had the Greek world cast out the influences of Periclean Athens for the example of the Spartans?  To trade the weakness of intellectual refinement for the strength of constant military preparation.  Would it be worth it to protect Greece from the Macedonians and the Romans? </p>
<p>4. “The discipline and practice of mindfulness makes far more sense in the context of circular religions as opposed to linear ones (as I have defined them).”<br />
-This is a very good insight and something I have never considered.  </p>
<p>You have some insightful observations on this site.  You have a very good understanding of Judaism/Christian/Islamic doctrine and you apply it in an even-handed manner.  It does not appear that you have spent as much time examining Buddhist doctrine as you have Judaism/Christian/Islamic doctrine, which is unfortunate because it looks like you have some useful points to add.  </p>
<p>If you are trying to criticize the shallowness of the Western practice of Buddhism, you could take more care to not expand criticism of its practitioners into criticism of the doctrine.  However, if you are just hoping to disparage Buddhism to deter people from pursuing it, you would only be deterring the people who are aimless and easily deterred to begin with.  I hope this is not the case and I am looking forward to your thoughts on the actual doctrinal roots of Buddhism.  </p>
<p>Axial</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Katona</title>
		<link>http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/comment-page-1/#comment-350</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Katona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/?p=204#comment-350</guid>
		<description>Excellent article that really exposes some of the hypocrisy surrounding the new-age spirituality movement, thank you for posting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent article that really exposes some of the hypocrisy surrounding the new-age spirituality movement, thank you for posting.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Kronemyer</title>
		<link>http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/comment-page-1/#comment-340</link>
		<dc:creator>David Kronemyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 22:10:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/?p=204#comment-340</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link, I&#039;ve verified the information through other sources and I have to say this does seem inconsistent with Mr. Dreyfus&#039; professed monkish ideations (a three-year &quot;vow of silence&quot; in the desert, etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link, I&#8217;ve verified the information through other sources and I have to say this does seem inconsistent with Mr. Dreyfus&#8217; professed monkish ideations (a three-year &#8220;vow of silence&#8221; in the desert, etc.).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: random_reader</title>
		<link>http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/comment-page-1/#comment-339</link>
		<dc:creator>random_reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/?p=204#comment-339</guid>
		<description>Dreyfus&#039;s guru featured in Michael Roach &quot;scandal&quot; article:

http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues/20100211/Monk+y+Business+Controversial+NYC+guru+Michael+Roach

Sounds like a sad, B version of the Zen Center</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dreyfus&#8217;s guru featured in Michael Roach &#8220;scandal&#8221; article:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues/20100211/Monk+y+Business+Controversial+NYC+guru+Michael+Roach" rel="nofollow">http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues/20100211/Monk+y+Business+Controversial+NYC+guru+Michael+Roach</a></p>
<p>Sounds like a sad, B version of the Zen Center</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lynne</title>
		<link>http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/comment-page-1/#comment-338</link>
		<dc:creator>lynne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/?p=204#comment-338</guid>
		<description>It pains me to hear that tickets to see Thich Nhat Hanh &quot;are not cheap&quot; - or cost anything at all, for that matter.  I agree that in many instances different cultures simply cannot understand each other and that it backfires when you try to analyze one religion in terms of another from a cultural point of view.  It also bothers me that trinkets were being sold in the lobby of a Thich Nhat Hanh &quot;concert.&quot;  Still, his message to lay people and monks alike has always been one of &quot;engaged Buddhism&quot; - doing what we can to alleviate suffering in ourselves and others.  The meditations you speak of serve to awaken us to the present moment but can be engaged in at any time of the day in any activity we are doing - including putting your life at risk to help others.  His life in Vietnam during the conflict with the French, and what he does now for American Vietnam vets, are inspirational.  That being so, bravo for looking into things and not just accepting what the tide pushes you to accept!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It pains me to hear that tickets to see Thich Nhat Hanh &#8220;are not cheap&#8221; &#8211; or cost anything at all, for that matter.  I agree that in many instances different cultures simply cannot understand each other and that it backfires when you try to analyze one religion in terms of another from a cultural point of view.  It also bothers me that trinkets were being sold in the lobby of a Thich Nhat Hanh &#8220;concert.&#8221;  Still, his message to lay people and monks alike has always been one of &#8220;engaged Buddhism&#8221; &#8211; doing what we can to alleviate suffering in ourselves and others.  The meditations you speak of serve to awaken us to the present moment but can be engaged in at any time of the day in any activity we are doing &#8211; including putting your life at risk to help others.  His life in Vietnam during the conflict with the French, and what he does now for American Vietnam vets, are inspirational.  That being so, bravo for looking into things and not just accepting what the tide pushes you to accept!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: random_reader</title>
		<link>http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/comment-page-1/#comment-201</link>
		<dc:creator>random_reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 07:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/?p=204#comment-201</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed your post.  There may be a flaw in some of your  logic about &quot;mindfulness&quot; and the &quot;experts&quot; as in &quot;An expert is somebody like Bruce Lee in karate movies, a downhill ski racer, a championship tennis player or even driving a stick-shift.&quot;

Many experts, especially in sports,  spend significant time learning &quot;basic&quot; movements before attaining mastery.  For example, Bruce Lee initially learned Wing Chun, which, similar to most martial arts practices begins with very basic moves and forms.   With disciplined practice, as the body and brain learn these movements--expertise develops--everyone starts somewhere.  

In that respect, the mindfulness exercises do help, even out of their cultural context--as exemplified by Jon Kabat-Zinn&#039;s work.  But again, the people helped by these exercises may be far outnumbered by office workers with screen savers saying &quot;I am Love&quot; and desperately reading Deepak Chopra.

(I&#039;ve ordered the 1st two books from your &quot;recommended reading&quot; posted in the &#039;response&#039;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed your post.  There may be a flaw in some of your  logic about &#8220;mindfulness&#8221; and the &#8220;experts&#8221; as in &#8220;An expert is somebody like Bruce Lee in karate movies, a downhill ski racer, a championship tennis player or even driving a stick-shift.&#8221;</p>
<p>Many experts, especially in sports,  spend significant time learning &#8220;basic&#8221; movements before attaining mastery.  For example, Bruce Lee initially learned Wing Chun, which, similar to most martial arts practices begins with very basic moves and forms.   With disciplined practice, as the body and brain learn these movements&#8211;expertise develops&#8211;everyone starts somewhere.  </p>
<p>In that respect, the mindfulness exercises do help, even out of their cultural context&#8211;as exemplified by Jon Kabat-Zinn&#8217;s work.  But again, the people helped by these exercises may be far outnumbered by office workers with screen savers saying &#8220;I am Love&#8221; and desperately reading Deepak Chopra.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;ve ordered the 1st two books from your &#8220;recommended reading&#8221; posted in the &#8216;response&#8217;)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stéphane Dreyfus</title>
		<link>http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/2009/09/thich-nhat-hanh-at-the-pasadena-civic-auditorium/comment-page-1/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>Stéphane Dreyfus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 19:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phenomenologicalpsychology.com/?p=204#comment-128</guid>
		<description>To disparage a spiritual tradition that is over 2500 years old is a dangerous thing to do if one has not spent an extended period of time studying it. Such criticism, after going to one event and reading the subjective reports of the authorities of other religions, does not constitute an educated or logically defensible position. It would be akin to a master pastry chef telling someone who had mastered the art of Bar-B-Q, that they were doing it wrong because they hadn&#039;t put any whipped cream on the baby back ribs.

It is also dangerous to quote any one of the four noble truths out of context. While the first noble truth is, indeed, that life is suffering (though you should get a teaching on this to understand its full meaning), the next three, which should be taught along with it, are as follows:
2) There is a cause for this suffering
3) Therefore there can be and end to this suffering
4) There is a means to achieve this goal

It would also behoove you study bodhicitta as it is defined by the Tibetan Buddhists: the desire to reach total enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings. Of course, to understand this you would need to understand the definition of enlightenment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To disparage a spiritual tradition that is over 2500 years old is a dangerous thing to do if one has not spent an extended period of time studying it. Such criticism, after going to one event and reading the subjective reports of the authorities of other religions, does not constitute an educated or logically defensible position. It would be akin to a master pastry chef telling someone who had mastered the art of Bar-B-Q, that they were doing it wrong because they hadn&#8217;t put any whipped cream on the baby back ribs.</p>
<p>It is also dangerous to quote any one of the four noble truths out of context. While the first noble truth is, indeed, that life is suffering (though you should get a teaching on this to understand its full meaning), the next three, which should be taught along with it, are as follows:<br />
2) There is a cause for this suffering<br />
3) Therefore there can be and end to this suffering<br />
4) There is a means to achieve this goal</p>
<p>It would also behoove you study bodhicitta as it is defined by the Tibetan Buddhists: the desire to reach total enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings. Of course, to understand this you would need to understand the definition of enlightenment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

